grexx submitted by
So I think we need to start thinking about blockchain systems as clusters of networks and not one main blockchain. You may have one core token/currency that the other chains recognize and can process as currency (through smartbridge transactions) but then have that pegged to the sidechains for the purpose of accounting in and out of the sidechain that processes the smart contracts. This might allow you to have a scalable network of sidechains running ARKVM and smart contracts that users could select between in congested periods while still using the main ARK token as currency in and out of the sidechain. If that makes sense. I missed a lot of the argument above and just saw some discussion on VM and sidechains so wanted to see what all the fuss was about but I don't have time to fully get caught up. So correct me if I missed the core of the concern/argument Ultimately for scaling efforts to work, people are going to have to start thinking outside of the box and doing everything on one chain isn't the answer. the one thing you want to avoid is having too much extra data being processed on the main chain you want to keep it lean and focused on payments as effectively as possible It's extremely cumbersome to spin off an entire blockchain just to run one dapp/smart contract I'll be better off joining an already popular chain with the vm enabled So this is something I think is misleading. One major facet of ARK is that we are going to seriously lower the barrier to entry for deploying blockchains. On top of that, there would be several economic models for the person running the chain to secure delegates. They could potentially offer profit sharing, i.e. if the contract charges a fee to run, a portion of the cost of using the dapp/smart contract goes to the delegate pool. They could fund it themselves as you mentioned through some form of contract, or they could create a model we haven't even thought of yet, like in game perks, company voting rights for delegates, etc. Remember that a sidechain isn't necessarily just a smart contract, it could be a companies entire product rolled into a dapp using a blockchain that they don't want bloated or effected by other data they could close off that blockchain to deploying or processing smart contracts outside of their dapp and simply have it serve the purpose of their product. That would be just one use case of deploying an ARK compatible chain You could accept ARK into your sidechain through a pegged mechanism as payment for utilizing your smart contract/dapp and then have the contract that accepts that ARK peg distribute tokens to the delegates that could then be withdrawn to the main ARK chain through the smartbridge from the associated main chain account which does the financial accounting for the sidechain grexx
No matter what you think about ethereum's scaling solutions, it has 100% not been proven to actually work up to this point. If I was a product owner, I would not want to rely on the ethereum developers or the ethereum blockchain at this point for my entire business model Look at how many businesses right now are effected when something like CryptoKitties kills the Eth blockchain how would you feel if you are a company with a product and some asshat mobile app for trading digital cats shuts down your business for 4 days and you lose a weeks salary for your employees due to the losses it's an unsustainable business model We are going to make it to where anyone can deploy a blockchain as easily as they would deploy a VPS or a website. In some industries, like gaming, it might become a badge of honor or an esteemed position to be a delegate for those chains. It could even be incorporated into the game itself. For larger corporate environments, they may not care about having it be as decentralized as you and may have a series of corporate partners collaborate on running a network they use among several companies for a product line who knows what people will come up with we are building the tools to create new business models, building them off the ARK brand and with built in compatibility to create inter-chain operations in the future as we learn where those new opportunities lie the reason everyone uses ERC20 and runs on Eth right now is because they have no other option without putting in serious man hours to launch their own eth chain We have talked to countless teams building on Ethereum right now who wish there was another option. Everyone in this sector has a different view of how this all plays out. Ethereum has their vision and anyone who wants to support them is probably making a great decision. They have some of the smartest minds working on the issues with their network but it doesn't mean it's the right answer in every situation. moonman
This doesn't address how to run trustless swaps when the main chain doesn't have a VM, which is one of the main Ark products people are looking forward to. You're saying that the sidechain needs to be funded by the runner, but then that again kills the point because then it's centralized and requires some dude to back his own tokens for the swaps, which is nonsense. grexx
I didn't say it needs to be. I said there are several options of how to secure delegates for a sidechain. moonman
I'm not talking about securing them. I'm talking about a specific product that has been hailed as the holy grail for ARK - trustless currency swaps How do you propose it works with a sidechain when sidechain tokens have no value compared to ARK? grexx
If the sidechain requires money to swap into the sidechain in order to secure an action, then the money is supplied by the people using the service. goldenpepe
There is lots of confusion and mixed messaging as to what Ark actually is Is Ark a way to connect blockchains? Or is Ark a platform? goldenpepe
The people that believed the former were confused as to why the VM isn't going to be on the main chain Since that would allow trustless swaps But apparently it isn't moonman
I'm asking about trustless swaps. There are 3 parties in this equation - the main chain ARK that is swapped in, the side chain token, and the target currency that is outside Ark's chains. If ArkVM was on the mainchain then it is simple to require collateral on the ArkVM side and then release it after. With a side chain, this isn't possible because the tokens used to faciliate the transaction between for ex BTC and ARK have no value @grexx grexx
I don't think there is confusion or mixed messages. I think ARK has the potential to fill roles we haven't even thought up yet. I think the confusion is in what YOU personally want ARK to be and what you see as the killer application, and maybe a difference in priorities. goldenpepe
No, based on everything I've seen it's the former grexx
But always remember I am only here to speak for myself and not the team in any sort of proper spokesman role. moonman
It's not "us personally" - we run the largest and most active Ark community outside of this slack. goldenpepe
If it's the latter then there needs to be better communication moonman
We have a point of reference to know what people are expecting or investing for / want goldenpepe
I keep seeing people pushing the "smartbridge" as a way to connect chains grexx
Does there? Why? Because you say so? goldenpepe
I see encoded listeners being pushed moonman
Because everybody says so. goldenpepe
People keep talking about how Ark will connect every chain using encoded listeners and "embedding the code snippet" grexx
The intention was to fulfill both roles. To create push button blockchains with the ability to share data between each of those chains. goldenpepe
But how do you fulfill the former without a VM on the main chain?
You can't do trustless swaps without it moonman
Our question is directly regarding HOW this will technically be possible without VM on the main chain without trusting centralized nodes.
ArkVM was pitched as the solution to centralized nodes.
Without it in the equation it's just an open source ShapeShift goldenpepe
I said this earlier, but there needs to be a real whitepaper
A fully technical explanation of all the technology and how everything is supposed to work grexx
So let me ask you this just as a philosophy/feasibility question. Would you rather see a closed smart contract system on the main chain that only allowed contracts for trustless swaps between chains but not necessarily open deployment of smart contracts, i.e. you wouldn't be able to deploy cryptokitties to the main chain to run your business but we would be able to deploy a contract to allow trustless swaps between the sidechain that runs it, while still balancing out the need to keep the majority of application traffic off of the main chain to avoid bloat/congestion? moonman
If you're asking if we/people want main chain VM exclusive use for trustless swaps, the answer is absolutely YES
If main chain was limited to swaps it would address all the concerns we and fellow Ark holders we've talked to have goldenpepe
My concerns are slightly different and related to the forked chains themselves
the_stalker You tell them @moonman goldenpepe
I don't see how segregating the VM to another chain will solve bloat grexx
I see that the argument focuses down to trustless swaps being the key component that is desired, but the ARK teams major issue with allowing deployment of contracts in the way it works currently on Ethereum is with the bloat/congestion issue goldenpepe
devs that want to deploy a smart contract will just join a chain that has the VM enabled already
That will lead to the problem ethereum is having now moonman
If swaps were the exclusive use of VM on the main chain it would avoid bloat. spghtzzz
Sidechains will have ARK valuation? goldenpepe
That's the thing though
I don't see how segregating the VM into its own chain will solve bloat
Everyone will just congregate onto a single popular VM-enabled chain goldenpepe
It'll be an ethereum clone grexx
If application are functioning on individual connected sidechains then the majority of in-application processing could be accomplished on the sidechain with pegged trustless swaps back to the main chain and the only accounting on the main chain is the accounting moonman
I think I understand what the team is getting at with deploying sidechain VMs, I am simply worried that the biggest pitch that people have repeated back to us is not possible without the main chain VM being able to be used for swaps.
@goldenpepe They won't because there will be no valuation incentive. spghtzzz
So trustless swaps will be available then moonman
So the private chains will stay "private"
@spghtzzz No, he just asked us as a "what if", but hopefully he asked for a good reason :slightly_smiling_face: grexx
I am not allowed to divulge key internal information, but I do enjoy talking these things through and getting feedback/opinions (edited) spghtzzz
If sidechains can have proper valuation in ARK, just start a decentralized-oriented chain and make trustless swaps available moonman
That runs the risk of dethroning ARK, which would be the other issue. goldenpepe
I mean, answering technical details of how this should all work on a high level shouldn't be "key internal info"
That's our biggest worry: the promises aren't technically possible moonman
You're not selling to just investors here, developers like us want to know how this is going to be done because it's why we're here in the first place creating things on ARK and running delegates - we want to see it succeed and we're currently between a rock and a hard place trying to get an explanation for "HOW" this is going to happen.
If you're telling us that the intended use for ark is different from what nearly everybody we asked concluded from the marketing, it feels like we bought into a bait and switch or there was a severe breakdown in communication. (edited) spghtzzz
Dethroning won't be an issue though, if everything is measured out in ARK, that's incentive to have/use ARK. (edited) moonman
It can't be measured out in ARK if the main chain has no VM, because the sidechain token HAS to have a valuation in order to do the swaps - in which case there's no point in swapping to ARK in the end anyway @spghtzzz spghtzzz
I'm confused though, isn't that what smartbridge is for? moonman
smartbridge is a text field jarunik
Basically you need native bridging before it can work. grexx
I hear you and I am taking notes on some of the issues. From the very beginning, at least as far as I am concerned, ARK has been about community development and building this out as a team. Unfortunately in this industry, people do like to cannibalize and sometimes it's hard to know how open to be. I think we are seeing a little bit of a conflict between those two philosophies. I think it would only be beneficial to get input and to do some sort of technical sessions with some of the prominent devs in the community for feedback and solidifying some of these topics. All we can do is end up strengthening the final vision. That being said, everyone obviously on the development side keeps very busy and we have multiple time zones, so I am not sure how complicated it would be to setup.
I wish we had an upcoming event everyone could meet up at and have a 3 day whiteboard session lol goldenpepe
If you're telling us that the intended use for ark is different from what nearly everybody we asked concluded from the marketing This. Ark was marketed to me as a middleman to let other chains communicate 1 reply Today at 7:13 AM View thread goldenpepe
Ark being a platform of forked chains is something different moonman
It can be both with your "philosophical" suggestion of only allowing main chain VM for swaps. goldenpepe
Maybe this is a reason to start marketing/doing PR :wink:
I always thought it would be both. Was I wrong? goldenpepe
It can be both if the VM was on the main chain grexx
I don't think ARK is an eitheor of the above proposed uses, I think the intention is a both. arigard
Isn't aces connecting the block chains? goldenpepe
Mostly on our discord with other devs
ACES is shapeshift moonman
ACES is centralized @arigard goldenpepe
It's not decentralized or trustless grexx
Aces requires trusted intermediaries
We were under the impression - and I think ryano was as well - that ArkVM would allow things like ACES to function trustlessly using a main chain VM implementation goldenpepe
Yea, I remember when ACES was first released and we talked to ryano about it moonman
So it could become more than just "open source shapeshift" (edited) goldenpepe
Even he said smart contracts could be used to do ACES in a trustless manner
But that's not possible without the VM on the main chain grexx
No I mean I get what you are saying. Look if we launch a fully integrated open source ARK blockchain with full ARKVM functionality and anyone in the world can clone it and publish an Ethereum competitor on the spot, we always ran the risk of someone forking/cloning ARK and stealing our thunder, but that is a risk we are willing to take.
We won't intentionally hamstring ourselves
who said that? grexx
ARKVM was on the initial roadmap from Day 1 grexx
Technically it was on the roadmap at Crypti mike
The main chain is only to provide communications among bridged chains, and send payments in Ark among addresses, just as TCP/IP is only used to send data among IP addresses. Applications seeking trustless operation can run their own bridged chains with multiple delegates forked from Ark and configured to their own custom configurations, or they can even use a different consensus system altogether. Enterprise applications can run permissioned ledgers using an Ark fork since it is very similar to DPoS, except they control who can be delegates, like EduCTX as an example. ArkVM will be available for those who want to run Solidity contracts, either as their own forked and bridged chain, like if they have complex contracts and/or high volume, or can run their contracts on a public ArkVM chain bridged to Ark. ACES is also available as a trusted listener and relay node option to other chains. There are plenty of options for difference use cases and preferences. goldenpepe
But Mike, wouldn't being forced to fork off your own chain every time you wanted to create your own dapp/smart contract be extremely cumbersome? jarunik
It is already really easy to clone goldenpepe
How is it easy? You need to set up your own servers, find people to be your delegates, acquire a stash of ark
If you end up being your own delegate then there goes decentralization moonman
I understand and agree with the use case OUTSIDE of trust less swaps. But in the context of trustless swaps, which has been Ark's biggest selling point everywhere we asked, it would only be possible if the main chain had VM or a sidechain token had a valuation, in which case there would be no reason to swap back to ark. Were trustless swaps not a big part of the internal goal of what ArkVM aims to accomplish? How would it work with just side chains without stealing Ark's thunder? @mike ryano
I've talked about trust and the design of ACES in many posts. It often gets argued as not being trustless, but I do state that the ACES design is intentionally "trust agnostic" because there are many different views on the right way to build blockchain services. Not all parties believe trustless is even a thing. For example, even in smart contracts that are "trustless" you must trust the code, and very few people will critique the code, so you end up with a single point of trust failure. My personal favorite approach is M of N multisig, and this can reduce trust to a statistically insignificant amount (though by definition, as perhaps with all things, not 100% trustless). spghtzzz
if native function is built in v2, we can see trustless swaps ryano
as far as ACES being shapeshift, this is true to an extent. But shapeshift is like one single provider. A 1 of 1 signature service. With a marketplace we can build a system that has ways to manage trust using well studied trust based marketplace. And despite its name, the trust factor can be minimized towards zero with multisig goldenpepe
Who knows what protocol changes v2 will bring moonman
@ryano There's no such thing as multisig swaps though - that's sort of what it would be if main chain got VM - you could have 51 delegates to "decentralize" the contract and ensure it stays trustless. The current ACES implementation is entirely centralized around the specific node running it. moonman
A marketplace isn't decentralized, it just means you have more trust options. It's not "trust agnostic". You're only trusting one node, but you get to pick the node. ryano
Thats not true if it a multisig service goldenpepe
Another thing: wouldn't the forked chains require a stash of Ark? moonman
The problem with that is you're still trusting the few running them - they're not backed by ARK voters. goldenpepe
From what I remember Mike said, the forked chain's delegates will also be running Ark nodes which is how the forked chains' clients can communicate to Ark moonman
If you could lock ACES down to be ran just
under the delegate nodes ran under ARK itself, it could work. goldenpepe
But in order for that to happen, the delegates would need a stash of Ark in order to send Ark txs, no? grexx
I think there has always been an intention to have a marketplace of service providers who could be rated and would allow a more "trusted" environment but I get the argument against that model. spghtzzz
yes, it's a trust of consensus moonman
If ArkVM is being ported, it could be avoided and would renew and bring new faith into Ark if the main chain could become the central trustless hub for swaps. For other dapps I understand the hesitation due to bloat, but due to how the marketing was perceived or communicated I'm afraid that everyone we've spoken to or conversed with about the topic is expecting that specific dapp to play a central role in Ark development/adoption - which is why we were all taken aback when we were told that the main chain wouldn't have VM. grexx
But this here is exactly what led to the discussion above. What you describe here would then basically be a smart contract. Moon Man If you could lock ACES down to be ran just
under the delegate nodes ran under ARK itself, it could work. Posted in #generalToday at 6:58 AM moonman
There's no way to lock it down trustlessly though without also having it interwined with ARK
He can't "Force" nodes to run ACES, that's the problem.
Then the issue is we don't know who we are trusting.
Then you get other issues like sybil attacks ryano
I'm trying to dig up an important article on this topic, but you should all get familiar with the advantages and disadvantages of smart contracts vs. M of N multisig moonman
That's why DPoS is good - it solves these issues. ryano
you'll find very material advantages to multisig that are not often discussed, ones that fit very nicely in well studied and proven marketplace-like ecosystems goldenpepe
Aren't atomic swaps basically that? ryano
Were building ACES trust-agnostic for this reason, because if people want to built "trustless" services, which can be argued to be trusted anyways, theres no reason not to provide the ecosystem to communicate their services
but there will be many other services just using multisig to reduce trust jarunik
Someone will sure launch a clone chain which offers VM services ryano
this is how its done in bitcoin and monero, and is more powerful than people let on moonman
And then it overtakes ark if it carries ark features but has a swaps-capable VM, which is our other concern. jarunik
You will better be running it then! ryano
If i have 5 service providers, and a service is set up as a 3 of 5 signature service, those 5 providers are all listening to the external chain, possibly subscribing to different listener sources, and then verifying back to ark, like an oracle, that the requested event occurred. This is a simple binary oracle response, and can be entered as signature. Sign = yes, no sign = no/unsure. moonman
You have to trust those 5 providers though. ryano
You would then need 3 bad actors for this to fail. moonman
And what happens when you have sock puppets
that's how sybil attacks work
You spam the network with sock puppets goldenpepe
Yea even Tor got sybil'd moonman
If you can't add your own sock puppets, then what's the point of having 5 sigs if one person chooses all 5? Then you're just trusting the creator goldenpepe
but tbh, monero is vulnerable to sybil too moonman
The reason ARK will help with this is you are tying the 51 sigs to existing delegates that were voted in by ARK users.
They're "trusted" but decentralized in a method that makes sense given the platform ryano
well, why not use those delegates as your signers then moonman
There's no way to force the delegates to run the service
That's the problem ryano
no forcing anywhere, but incentives goldenpepe
Not unless the ark team embeds aces into ArkCore B.Lawrence.Lowe
What about incentivizing the delegates to run the service somehow? moonman
It won't matter. It's too easy for them to just say "I'm not interested or don't want to" and then you get attacked by those who are running it. It just doesn't make any sense. moonman
A second layer solution doesn't work simply because you can't enforce delegates running the service. ryano
But why do you trust the delegates? moonman
I don't - voters do.
I trust the collective voter choice vs your choice of 5 signatories B.Lawrence.Lowe
Voter here. I tust my delegate. He;s always paid me on time. moonman
It's about who ARK voters trust.
Because ultimately that's what powers the platform - trust in ARK and ARK holders spghtzzz
why do you trust a delegate who won't even reduce your TX fees? goldenpepe
I don't get it ryano
even with smart contracts, since were dealing with external chains, you need to trust a source to confirm that something from the outside world happened spghtzzz
explanation provided yesterday in #delegates if that was toward me @goldenpepe moonman
Correct - but it is far less concerning when that source is the 51 delegates.
Rather, when the source is confirmed by the 51 delegates ryano
but now instead of 51 delegates its 51 listener hubs
or even more moonman
Yes, but again, sybil attacks... B.Lawrence.Lowe
Right, and just like a representational government, as a voter I trust my delegate. I thought this is how this worked, yes? moonman
If you select the hubs, it's centralized to YOU selecting them. If you don't, it's open to sybil attacks from sock puppets
If it's limited to the delegates, it makes sense in the context of the ARK ecosystem because you are trusting your currency to those 51 people in the first place
He takes my votes and makes decisions for the community in my best interest, as his constituent, right? moonman
The only way to enforce the consensus is to build it into the core so delegates have to run the platform and keep the swaps "dapp" secure and running.
anyway, I've explained my case. Hopefully what I said made sense. mike
The original plan, and still the plan, is to interconnect other blockchains, which can be existing chains or new ones forked from ark. We have added ArkVM as an option to be added to the deployable chains, and run a public ArkVM chain. Ryano has also come up with ACES, as another, streamlined method to exchange and interact with other chains, which is an example of Ark allowing different methods to be developed to accomplish objectives. A non-turing complete VM meant only to facilitate cross chain swaps is a viable option as well, and can run as a bridged chain. ryano
You could reduce the risk of sybil attacks by doing something similar to how ark does voting. A listener source would have to be tied to an ark address, so you would see their "stake". In this case attempting to run 51 listeners to do a sybil attack would require you to reduce your stake, and likely be less attractive to users moonman
@mike How does the bridged chain function as a method for these swaps though? What do you envision as the technical flow for this?
@ryano You could do that, but then you're doing almost exactly what I mentioned before - making your own ARK clone but with swaps. (edited)
What would be the requirements for running the nodes? How would you force consensus without running its own blockchain? goldenpepe
@mike I recall you saying deployed chains' delegates will also be running Ark nodes which is how these chains will be able to communicate with Ark. But wouldn't that require these forked-chain delegates to maintain a stash of Ark? Wouldn't the chain become completely isolated once their delegate nodes run out of Ark? moonman
If it's not an ARK clone and just listeners - that means no PoW, no DPoS, what are you going to do in your listener code to enforce consensus
The only thing you can do is have more oracles checking the top 51 delegates and matching it with signatures provided by listeners - but then THOSE oracles get sybil attacked! mergatroid
You know on the roadmap where it says all of the goals, and tech documentation is at 25%
@mike "The original plan, and still the plan, is to interconnect other blockchains, which can be existing chains or new ones forked from ark." This answered my main question. As long as by "existing chains" you clearly mean, Bitcoin, Ethereum, Litecoin, Dash, Stratis, Waves, etc.. Not sure how it will all work because I don't code, but if you're confident in getting it done, that works for me. goldenpepe
@mergatroid All the questions we're asking could have been answered with a technical whitepaper, but it doesn't exist and the existing whitepaper is outdated. mike
they would run ark clients, which interact with the Ark chain, the various ark-cli clients that are available, or they can run full nodes with their own copies of the ark blockchain, it's up to the developer of a particular bridged chain how he wants to configure it. ryano
time to update that white paper :stuck_out_tongue: goldenpepe
But the pushbutton deployed chains will all need a stash of ark, no? spghtzzz
it'd be nice for interoperability purposes mike
They will need Ark to write data to the main ark chain using the vendor field. they will not need ark to run listeners and read the vendor field from transactions addressed to that chain. cannabanana
Dudes, all I can say is that this blockchain is less than a full year old. We've been already been looking for a technical writer for a whitepaper 2.0 and techincal whitepaper. mike
if they want to use Ark as a reserve currency to back exchanges between other chains they would need that as well. mike
As canna says, we are hiring for a technical writer to update and add to the documentation, and hiring in general is ramping up now that the SCic is in place. goldenpepe
@mike Do you envision in the future there will be an ark-fork with the VM enabled that will essentially be an ethereum clone where all the devs gather to play with smart contracts/dapps? mike
Do you have any worries that any such chain may overtake ARK itself? @mike goldenpepe
I'm more concerned over that chain becoming bloated which defeats the purpose of moving the VM to its own chain in the first place mike
no, it is for a specific type of use, smart contracts to provide ETH type functionality. moonman
Grexx mentioned a separate chain for each major dapp.
That would reduce/remove bloat goldenpepe
It'll get very confusing if you have a bunch of large open VM-enabled chains.
"Have you seen ArkieKitties?" "Where? On ArkFork1? Fork2?Fork3?" goldenpepe
It'll lead to fragmentation spghtzzz
ecosystem, fragmentation is good
in some senses.. goldenpepe
No it isn't lol moonman
It's good for the network, not for user interaction. goldenpepe
depends how its designed i think
can be done well goldenpepe
@ryano I also brought this up moonman
Yeah I think it's a minor issue as well, it can probably have a directory or its own DNS-like service in the wallet goldenpepe
So if I want to create a super cool new dapp, I'll need to fork off my own chain, find people to be my delegates, then give them a bunch of ark ryano
In ethereum you need to know the contract name to interact with it, so why not required to know the ark chain id? goldenpepe
It's too cumbersome mike
separate chains is the preferred method, and for a lot of things requiring complex code, Solidity contracts aren't the best way to go. But for those wanting to port Solidity code to Ark, either on a public chain or their own chain, ArkVM will provide that option. goldenpepe
Yea I was thinking that
Small contracts can exist on a shared chain while large dapps like kitties or an ICO can exist in its own chain
Large projects will have the resources to fork, find delegates, and fund them
But that will still create fragmentation if there exists multiple large public VM chains mike
I see ArkVM as a way to onboard projects and developers from Eth over to Ark, but then they may optimize for more efficient operation by writing code from scratch specific to their needs instead of running on solidity. As an example, non-turing complete application specific code is more reliable in that it has a finite set of states where as Turing complete code has an infinte set of state, not all of which can be known.
if the multiple large public chains are bridged, contracts running on them can still communicate with other contracts running on the other large public VMs. goldenpepe
Bridging them won't help if the dapp you want to access is on ChainA and ChainA takes hours to process a tx because of bloat mike
It's analagous to code running on Amazon servers can communicate with code running on OVH servers via TCP/IP, like delegates now communicate with each other while running on different data centers. grexx
just for reference, the intention is to make discovery extremely easy and for the average user, they will have no idea what chain they are on or how it works.
they will just buy kitties and be happy goldenpepe
@grexx It would be great if the wallet could do that and it would solve fragmentation issues
"Chain-hopping" being completely transparent to the user grexx
that is a top priority goldenpepe
But how will we deal with a certain chain containing data you need being slow? grexx
same way the free market deals with anything
if your service sucks, improve your service or get beat by competition goldenpepe
The bloated chain will lose users? mike
If a public VM degrades in performance then there is a market for another public VM, and the existing one can upgrade its performance to remain competitive. grexx
sidechains can increase capacity through better hardware with the upgrades being made goldenpepe
But blockchains are sticky (to use an economic term), people will be less prone to switch if all their assets exist in that slow chain
Look at bitcoin grexx
but then again like I mentioned way earlier goldenpepe
Slow as fuck but people still use it because they're invested mike
gress is a faster typist than I am... grexx
connected clusters with pegged assets I think are a potential answer
within the sidechains
well if you look at the main ark chain, we have 8s blockchains to maximize use case as currency
but a sidechain depending on its needs wouldn't necessarily have to have 8s and could probably do a lot to increase tps and other factors
those are all things we will min/max on devnet though mike
If a given VM chain becomes bigger than Ark and wags the dog, that is part of the evolution. We don't want to try to force the ecosystem to use Ark but instead attract them to do so. We don't want to be like New York banning railroads from entering New York City to force traffic to use the Erie Canal. grexx
all of crypto is an experiment and we have no idea what models will ultimately come out of it, especially when we make it easy for anyone to launch their own fully capable smart contract enabled blockchain (eth clone)
so there is definitely some inherent risk as with investing in any emerging technology moonman
Pegged assets would address my concern regarding sidechain valuations and their use in swaps, but pegged assets have never worked in crypto except for Tether which is centralized and potentially a fraud. goldenpepe
Didn't someone mention forking ark and printing USD-backed coins? moonman
We did lol
I never said it was a good idea moonman
I was going to mention bitshares @bluffet
Bitshares isn't stable
Their pegs have fluctuated WILDLY in the past goldenpepe
Bitshares got delisted from bittrex and is in deep shit with the SEC though mike
Yes, TCP/IP was originally just to connect academic and research lab computers to share files, evolved to add email, then web, and now all kinds of applications. None of this added functionality was planned or conceived when TCP/IP was first invented. bluffet
I know, moonman. It is a liquidity issue. The market solves it. moonman
Tether never had this issue though (I don't have a good reason for why - bitshares is infinitely better designed yet economically worse than tether) grexx
in 3 years we may look back and think, holy shit, I never saw that coming. People are innovative and when given time, always end up exceeding expectations. I guess we are starry eyed dreamers in that we want to create something that empowers a new generation of innovation and accessibility in the space. bluffet
I liked your discussion today, guys. I learn from it. grexx
bitshares along with all of dan's projects have the problem of being centralized within a small group of connected supporters (edited) goldenpepe
Yea this was a good conversation
TL:DR will be in comments submitted by
This is an informal discussion with jl777 and some Komodo team members and the community on Telegram. I've edited some of the grammar and structure, combined shorter messages into paragraphs to help readability, and removed messages that weren't relevant to the discussion or had already been answered. Full text is visible on Komodo telegram, or Komodo Discord (telegram channel)
N 21: Mr. Please when smart contracts?
jl777: first four reference contracts are pretty much working now, likely some bug fixes needed but assets, faucet, rewards and dice CC contracts are functional
Firedragon: Ethereum start the year 2017 around 7 dollars, end the year x 200 times at around *1400*, user friendliness leads to giant expansion.
jl777: Sure, no disagreement, but code snippets don’t seem very user friendly. Unless you mean having cartoon characters alongside the code snippets makes it user friendly?
jl777: Having non-coders doing code is dangerous, no matter if it has cartoons.
Firedragon: enables expansion at scale.
jl777: Until you get an actual dApp that is popular and the entire chain bogs down and TX fees goes to $5+
Firedragon: it is dangerous, but once run into problem, will likely seek help, but important, easy to start.
jl777: With the CC contracts, it is a matter to issue rpc calls to start a contract. So it doesn’t require coding, but if your use case isn’t covered by an existing CC contract, then a custom CC contract needs to be written. It is similar to ASIC mining vs CPU mining. More work to make the ASIC, but once created it can do all the related things much more efficiently.
jl777: Assets with DEX, faucet, rewards and dice CC contracts I made in a month. We are in the process of hiring a dedicated CC contracts dev, they are not that much work to code but it does require to be coded and I only did the cli rpc calls, not GUI.
Firedragon: komodo solve the scalability of Cryptokittens that Ethereum bog down with. I believe Ethereum solve the usability issues. if only combine the two.
jl777: Yes, KMD solves the Cryptokitties scalability issue, but someone has to write the Cryptokitties CC contract which is mostly independent of the blockchain as it has the kitty’s DNA logic that seems to be most of it.
Jakub Alex: Jl777 what is your opinion about future price after bear market? What price levels can we expect with komodo? 50-100? 100-200 or more? Are we able to be in top 15 m cap coins?
jl777: Future KMD price depends on overall crypto market cap, if you can predict that, then I can predict a future KMD price. Historically KMD is a bit under 0.1% of overall crypto market cap. Assuming KMD price rises in CMC to top 10 level, then it would be closer to 1% of overall crypto market cap.
jl777: So really, just 2 variables. What overall rank on CMC and the total crypto market cap.
Chris Fray: Staking Is the best way u come back in a year collect your 5% and do it all over again don't panic sell.
jl777: It will be monthly starting very soon.
The Fonz: How many nodes are there currently? Running the network? is there a real time link to a list?
jl777: There is no way to know for sure, I would estimate about 1000
Rubinho: How do you run a node on KMD? Just by staking tokens?
jl777: Running a native wallet, runs a node.
Rubinho: Who is the intended end user for KMD? b2c? b2b? both? what is the state of partnerships?
The Fonz: Minimum KMD required?
Regnar: To run a node? No minimum required, but to earn 5.1% rewards on your balance, you need a minimum of 10 KMD in an address, the simplest way to do this is to store funds in Agama (even the lite mode) and press the claim interest button.
The Fonz: gotcha, thx.
Regnar: Probably best to check out the discord marketing channel for updates and talks on that, telegram generally gets cluttered quickly with other conversations. There are definitely partnerships being worked on, but I think it would be better to wait for official announcements on them, so I won't disclose or help push any rumors there. Here's the link.https://discord.gg/5WtTNKX
Regnar: jl777, I assume ERC20 projects who are looking to migrate off of Ethereum, or launch their main net, would be interested in Komodo as CC becomes more developed. Can you say what that migrating/main net process might look like for those projects?
jl777c: the process would be to get a new chain spawned to test the custom contract with and when it is working,to just migrate the ERC20 snapshot to the new chain. The CC framework is ready to be coded to and devs can create a custom contract embedded in their chain. txfees in their chain, only tx from their dapp on their chain.
Regnar: And I assume before they migrate to their new chain they can have all the features and things in place to be atomic swap capable, set up for dPoW, and would have the same scaling tech Komodo uses?
jl777: yes, all can be put in place before doing the snapshot and migrating, and everything other than enabling dPoW can be done without our being involved, though we are happy to help.
Regnar: Okay so the dPoW part requires Komodo involvement, and GameCredits, Kreds, Utrum, and some other coins have added dPoW to their chains for the extra security. Is this process getting easier to do for established coins that aren't looking to migrate?
jl777: as far as if KMD will survive this bear market, I am confident KMD will survive the next bear market and even the one after that. We have funding for 10+ years of dPoW and while we do have end user deliverables, that is a very expensive marketing wise for customer acquisition. Our focus on enabling technologies allows us to run much leaner on the marketing side. and in any case, we don’t have millions of dollars to be throwing about left and right for paid placements and listings like many of the other projects do. It will take longer, but as more people learn about KMD, the mentions we will get will be based on KMD attributes and not due to paid placements.
Rubinho: The main focus for many platforms is to attract devs.. i think the perception of the numbers of devs out is over estimated... what would you consider to be a "possible application" that can be built on KMD for the benefit of the end user? Again I own KMD, I just want to have a better grasp of KMD's competitive edge, is it only TPS? And if there isn't a lot of money for paid placements... which is understandable... how would KMD be better distributed in more hands?
jl777: I wrote 4 reference contracts last month: assets with DEX, faucet, rewards and dice. Once written they can be configured without programming, each CC contract that is written becomes part of the baseline contracts available for all chains, and the rewards CC contract implements what seems to be what is most liked about masternodes.
xRobeSx: Assetchains / dPoW / jumblr / 5% interest... the list goes on and on. The fact that anyone can spawn a new chain in seconds that has a built in faucet, is pretty damn cool.
The Fonz: This link is helpful as well https://www.reddit.com/komodoplatform/comments/8gyajv/welcome_to_komodo_a_beginners_guide/
jl777: Assets/tokens are also pretty important and dice is a classic blockchain game, all these are blockchain enforced trustless implementations
Steve Lee: I'd recommend reading https://komodoplatform.com/komodo-evolution-the-5-pillars-of-blockchain-tech/
and the 5 deep dive posts linked in the article.
Rubinho: how would that be beneficial in a real life scenario? what would be your prediction for the future in terms of the numbers of chains or platforms? Many or few winners?
xRobeSx: The first few years of bitcoin, was a lot of faucets and dice games :smiley: now anyone can do it in minutes ha.
Steve Lee: We're working with https://www.ideasbynature.com/
for a full rebrand and also refreshing the UX/UI across our product portfolio. Ideas By Nature is the world’s leading agency focused solely on the design and development of blockchain products. Located in the heart of Denver, CO.
jl777: these are just the reference CC contracts, the possibilities are endless as to what can be implemented. Basically anything you can describe coherently in detail can be made into a CC contract.
Steve Lee: We've spent the last year building the most securely scalable and interoperable blockchain infrastructure. We find this was critical to first focus on building the right foundation for our ecosystem and ensuring it was future-proof and to address many of the limitations we're seeing today.
Χαίρετε: UX/UI are better comparing with the old KMD apps, but it's still far from user friendly, the standards have to be much, much higher, otherwise I don't see much adoptions
J: I want to see ethLend style CC system in KMD
Rubinho: btw... I own KMD on ledger… will there be a way to gain the interest without having to move it to another wallet? I mean to claim. I don't want to take my private keys and put them into another wallet.
Steve Lee: This is our current interim solution. We're exploring full wallet integration with the Ledger team. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKBdGI8pu7M&lc=z22audyhlvnrjpdwq04t1aokgbvrwe1nz2iz0sbmi0mnrk0h00410
Rubinho: thank u for that!
Χαίρετε: average users access your infrastructure via apps, doesn't matter how good your underline techs are, if apps are hard to use, people will leave. google cloud has better tech than AWS, better engineering team, better talents, but it's losing big against AWS, internally google said it will only fund it 2 more years if things don't turn around, i know number of people who have left that team, so the infrastructure doesn't matter at the end. i think KMD team has this engineering mentality thinking that UX/UI is easy, but the opposite is true, designing a user friendly product is hard, even harder than engineering.
Steve Lee: Agreed, that's why since we've finished building the foundational architecture, we're moving focuses on building out our developer community, documentation, training, and are moving towards development of a smart contract reference library.
Siu: Mm1.0 is a proof of concept. As it is right now it still is ages ahead of similar concepts. It should be jaw dropping even as it currently is. The real problem bdex confronts is the prostitution of the "atomic swap" name by ETH tokens.
Steve Lee: Also in plan is building a GUI frontend for blockchain creation, customization, etc.
jl777: if everything was perfect already, we would be done and have nothing to do. it is a process of continuous improvement
James: Ethereum has solidity. Is there equivalent for Komodo?
jl777: CC contracts are native code running at full speed. Any language that can be compiled into a library can be used, but we are just getting started with making different language bindings and it would need to interface to the c/c++ functions inside the komodod. My thinking is that blockchain coding is difficult and not something end users or casual programmers should be doing, such can and have led to some very expensive errors, even experienced blockchain devs make errors. C++ is the easiest, but any language that compiles would be able to be used.
James: OK. So it is c++
Rubinho: could you walk me thought how am I (the end user) going to use KMD in the system? is KMD like GAS for the platform?
jl777: rust would likely not be too hard to interface to. The CC contracts tend to be configurable, so the user can determine the settings of the rewards and not have to code it, of course a full blockchain project creating their own dapp would need to still create their own dapp, but on their own chain, there is no crazy txfee, congestion, etc
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